Zuka Rambles (with a bit on sexuality)

[rose_of_pain]

The fact that I've actually managed to get quite a few of my friends interested in Takarazuka over the years makes me rather happy. Fandoms are always more enjoyable when you have people to share them with. And also making me realize that when I do talk about Zuka, perhaps I should try explaining what I'm talking about a bit more so those who don't know much about it can understand what the hell it is I'm saying. Considering I tend to speak of it as if I'm talking to other fans who already know when really I don't have many friends on here who would get it. XD

I've been considering making some posts about Zuka in general, mainly for those who are interested in wanting to know more. I was thinking like just a post about my favorite shows and actresses, with photos and info. Of course it'd be heavily biased towards my own likings but thought it could help in showing what's out there, etc. Could even do some general info but I think Taka-Wiki covers most of that and I know I've linked those interested to that site already. I probably wouldn't be able to make such entries until after Katsucon but just thought I'd see if its worth doing. Though I might do it anyways just as an excuse to pic-spam some of my lovely ladies. XD

Now among the friends I've gotten interested in Zuka, I've actually also gotten two of my local friends into it. I think it started about 2 years ago? Perhaps more, when I introduced my childhood friend Carrie to it. She's basically the closest thing I've ever had to a sister (hell we get mistaken for sisters all the time despite the fact we look nothing alike) and pretty much the only person from my childhood I'm still on good terms with and can talk about pretty much anything with as she's a lot more open-minded than the other girls we grew up with (we all grew up in a baptist setting, not exactly very open-minded in general so basically out of the group of girls I grew up with there, Carrie is the only one that knows I'm gay and is the only one I keep in touch with). She was always into theater and I already got her into Anime years ago and sure enough, she very much liked Seal of Roses and Elisabeth, which were the first two shows I introduced her to. She in turn showed our friend Sam the shows. I was actually rather surprised that Sam also got pretty interested in it as I didn't think she would be as she doesn't have as high of an interest in Anime as Carrie does. But anywho, their extent of knowledge is pretty much just the shows I introduce them to. They have finally ordered their own TI fansub discs but only the shows I showed them first that they liked. XD But both have become a bit addicted to Taka-Wiki and have watched those specific shows like a billion times. To the point where I think they've watched a few more than I have. lol Sam also has a very good ability to memorize faces so whenever I'm throwing a new show at them, Sam has this ability to spot actresses that I totally missed before. XD Granted she only knows a few but seriously very handy to have around since I'm HORRIBLE at recognizing people. Especially when they're doing background characters.

But yeah its been pretty great to have friends who I can have to talk about Zuka in person on a pretty regular basis (and by regular I mean more like once a month or so due to me always being busy with sewing lol and sometimes its hard to figure out our schedules so all 3 of us can meet. Normally its more like I show Carrie something, let her borrow it, and she then passes it on to Sam). But there has been one thing that I've found a bit odd when we talk about Zuka. Both of them have this tendency to refer to the otokoyaku in the masculine form. Saying "he" and "him" when referring to one of them. And I don't mean when they're talking about the characters. I usually refer to the character as a "he" too. But I always make sure to establish the fact that the actresses are female. But they both seem to have fallen into this comfort zone where they want to call them "he"s even when not referring to the character. Like Carrie even tends to refer to the top star otokoyaku as "the top guys". Though interestingly enough, they'll refer to them as females in some specific cases. Like if its an interview, backstage thing, or the Sports Event, etc. Where they're wearing more casual clothing and less make-up. Which I guess I can understand 'cause then the illusion of them playing a male isn't really there and its more obvious they're female.

But yeah, at first their tendency to refer to the actresses this way kinda bothered me and I kept wanting to correct them. I have a big feeling it has to do with them not really knowing how to deal with it. I mean like I'm a lesbian so to me its no big deal at all. Their females and that's part of the big reason I'm into Zuka in the first place. 'Cause I find it insanely hot to see them play such androgynous roles. 'Cause yes they never really actually look like men but that's part of the appeal. But at the same time, I kinda want to pull them aside and tell them, "hey, its ok to be able to appreciate the fact that they are attractive. It doesn't mean anything about your sexuality." 'Cause I really think that's the issue. 'Cause both of them will describe them as sexy or hot but only with a "he" in the sentence. But I don't think either of them is at all confused in their sexuality. I'm pretty solid that both of them are straight. I mean its similar to how like I will admit that some men are attractive but not in a sexual sense. I've found a lot of J-Rockers attractive because they have an androgynous look and tend to lean towards the feminine side. So in a way its kinda the opposite with Zuka I guess for straight girls? Maybe? lol I mean after all, Zuka's prime audience in Japan is middle-aged housewives and the shows are aimed to be enjoyable for females, but really in all honesty, meant for straight women. 'Cause Japan is kinda awkward about lesbianism in general (and I could get into that but that's a whole different discussion right there).

I dunno. I just find it interesting and kinda curious to see if anyone else has an opinion on this especially as most of those I've gotten interested into Zuka are straight. Its just interesting to me 'cause the main reason I am into Zuka is because I am a lesbian (and thus am VERY attracted to them) so its hard for me to see what the other viewpoint is.

~Lyn

Comments

[starlitrose.livejournal.com]

I agree that you should make a Zuka post! I know I would like to see it.

Hahaha funny point on the last part! What you said about straight people feeling the opposite of what you said about finding male J-rockers attractive in a non-sexual way is true, at least for me (as a straight person). I find androgynous people attractive in general, so I think some of the otokoyakus are attractive too. I think it stems from me liking guys who have some feminine qualities (but not to the point where I prefer women). And at the same time, I don't connect with super girly girls like I do with girls who have more of boyish or neutral interests/personalities, so that falls into the androgynous category too, haha.

I don't know if your friends use "he" when referring to the otokoyakus so much because the're afraid/feel uncomfortable to admit a woman is attractive, but perhaps because the part they are playing is a male role and they feel that's more appropriate to use in that case, when they are "being" the otokoyakus. Just speculation since you said they will refer to them as women when they're watching interview (when they are purely themselves, aka women) or backstage (when they may be dressed for the part but probably are out of character and being themselves?). Just my 2 cents. I could be wrong. XD But I could see myself referring to them that way - referring to them as men when they're involved with the otokoyaku part, and referring to them as women when they're out of character and being themselves. Or even just to help distinguish who I'm referring to when more than one person is on the screen.

[rose-of-pain.livejournal.com]

Well its not exactly that though. I guess maybe I didn't quite describe it right. And also realize I said "backstage" when I meant "rehearsal". ^^;; You never see backstage footage. Oops. But like in their rehearsals they are acting the roles and practicing but with casual clothes on.

And like I refer to the characters as males too when they're playing those parts. Its more when we are referring to them by their actual name and that comes out that kinda confuses me. Since I always identify them as female when talking about the actress directly. And like during a lot of the clips and stuff they are often still in make-up, just not as intense. And they still dress masculine-ish. And it varies as they do sometimes call them "guys" during some of these too. I don't know exactly when they do it as it really does vary and I should pay more attention next time I'm with them to hear exactly when they do it and when they don't. Sometimes its only when I'm referring to them as females that they respond back. So I wonder if its not really even intentional.

But yeah, the more shows you watch and the more times you watch a show, you tend to get to know the actresses more and refer to them as themselves more than the character they are playing. At least we have developed that habit. So in their cases, they do know who the actresses are when they do it. Like I've said, Sam's a lot better at identifying them than I am despite my years. lol Just 'cause I've always been bad with faces (it takes me forever just to match up the names with the faces in J-Rock bands for example and without their make-up on, sometimes I can't even figure it out even if I know them really well. XD Only exception is of course X-Japan since they are pretty much themselves on stage). And like in the Sports Festival, where they really are just being themselves and actually not dressing that boyish for a change (its one of the few times where I even notice they had breasts as they are so good at hiding those, lmao) since they're running around doing sports games and such. This was one of the few times where I never heard Carrie call them "he" once. XD Which I was glad for at least because if she did, when there's like no male roles really being played here, I'd have to raise an eyebrow there. And I also wonder if maybe watching that made her realize too that they really are females 'cause she seemed to do the whole calling them guys thing a little less since then. She even said at one point, "They're just girls who are good friends, having a good time." So maybe it just takes a while to get used to still even when you are open-minded about it? I mean both of them are still relatively new to androgyny in general, I think.

But yes, I definitely think I'll make some posts post-con. ^^

[genuinelie.livejournal.com]

...how can someone be "new to androgyny"? O_o I mean, really. Do they get no exposure whatsoever to fashion ads from Calvin Klein etc.?

[rose-of-pain.livejournal.com]

Ehh, maybe I phrased that wrong. I'm bad with words. lol But I mean like both of them are used to a more black and white world (mostly due to their family backgrounds, Sam less so than Carrie. I don't know much about Sam but she is from a Hindu family who do have issues with her dating anyone who isn't Hindu. But I know def in Carrie's life, she hasn't had much exposure to a lot of things, having been even more sheltered than I was) where men are men and women are women. It wasn't really til I got Carrie into all my fandoms that she started getting more open about these ideas. But she still gets kinda confused and a little unsure how to react to things out of the normal. But she is learning and I am pretty proud of her for it. Its not really her fault that she hasn't had much knowledge of these things til now.

I mean yes there are the ads you speak of and models but I can't really see either of them really paying much attention based on their interests. And in my opinion most of that tends to be not as extreme as the Japanese J-Rockers and Zuka actresses I've introduced them to. They are still a bit bawfled at some of it. But they both have been pretty accepting, at least compared to some other people I've come across (like my parents).

[genuinelie.livejournal.com]

SInce you identify as gay you'll probably have a different perspective than I do, but I think the truth is very few people are actually 100 percent straight or 100 percent gay. So they might identify as straight but finding women attractive (in a sexual sense) does actually mean the potential is there...with the right person. I just think if you're MOSTLY straight you'll find MOST of the opposite gender attractive (if they're cute people to begin with) and maybe one or two people of the same gender attractive (in those rare instances) and vice versa, once you've gotten over cultural norms and expectations.

But I'm not familiar with Zuka. If they're women playing men I would probably also describe them as "he" because that's their character...although rereading your post I see you said they do that even when not referring to them in their roles. So I'd actually just say it doesn't have a lot of meaning, because they're women playing men (if they are women playing men, idk!) and actors and their characters kind of mesh together for fans sometimes.

Or the third option is they (the audience of straight women) just like the show, and the characters, and are able to make-believe with the actors in their characters and their world.

Idk! :-)

[rose-of-pain.livejournal.com]

Ok, I guess I really didn't make it very clear in my post since you both seemed confused on what I meant. XD But in my defense I did write it up late at night after several intense hours of sewing.

But yes, Takarazuka is a all-female theater group in Japan. They play both the female and male parts and here I'm specifically referring to the actresses that play the male roles. And like I said, I refer to the characters as males too when they actually are males. But I meant when we're using the name of the actress and they call them a "he". I mean like I said, maybe its just makes more sense to them. But Zuka actresses don't really want to be thought of as male.

And yeah, I mean there's a whole documentary on Zuka and they put it pretty well in that. That the Japanese women who watch the shows are mostly there for the escape. They even have a little interview (granted this thing is about 10 years old now so it might not be accurate to today's crowds) with some women after a show who admit they don't tell their husbands that they sneak away in the middle of the day to watch these shows and that the otokoyaku really are their ideal image of a man. Its not that they are in love with the actresses persay but they are in love with the image they present. And that's also why Zuka fans are typically women (male fans are really rare, lol I've never encountered one in all my 8 years but I know they do exist XD) because the shows are in fact directed specifically at women and give them this fantasy world where the men are perfect. I just find it ironic that it takes a woman to play that role for it come off as that. XDXD But it really is the opposite of kabuki in that sense. Where the onnagata are said to be the "perfect woman". I did a whole big essay on this in college once and its pretty interesting stuff. And Zuka really fits the same mind frame, just the opposite gender.

But yeah, I'm just curious about it. 'Cause to me personally it strikes me as odd 'cause I've never had any other friends and fellow Zuka fans call them that unless its referring to the character in the show. Just wonder if its them having a hard time dealing with this idea of thought. 'Cause yeah, I totally agree with the blurred lines of sexuality. But I don't think they really would be able to understand that given their backgrounds. Still catches me off guard sometimes when I'm being all "man she's sexy" and one of them agrees with me and I'm like "wait, did you just agree?" lol just 'cause I mean with a lot of my other friends that wouldn't phase me at all. But its just because its them. XD But it does make me happy.

[lauand.livejournal.com]

Hmm... I consider myself straight but I can appreciate hotness in women. I'm not interested in Zuka, though, and I recognize I'm always more interested in males (especially singers and characters). Maybe this addressing them as "he" is not a conscious effort to deal with the matter, it's only that they only find them attractive when they're into a male role? I don't really know. I'm usually not too worried about words and identifying the correct gender with the correct pronoun, not when everybody knows which is which (when I don't know it might irk me a little because I get confused).

[new_vogue_ravyn.livejournal.com]

I find it a bit weird from what you've described to be honest. But maybe as you said they were having trouble adjusting. Or finding the change between seeing them as men onstage and seeing them as women outside of performance a bit difficult.